Comments on: Music Fandom vs. Narrative Fandom

By: Jacqueline Vickery

Jacqueline Vickery — Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:02:47 +0000

Really interesting post and discussion thread. I’ve become increasingly interested in this topic as well, although with relation to sports fandom rather than music. Sports fandom obviously being similar to music fandom because it is not narrative either (at least in the traditional sense of the word).

This is purely speculation, but I’m curious how inclusion and exclusion plays a role in narrative fandom as opposed to non-narrative. For example, within narrative-driven fan cultures someone could be a fan of Harry Potter AND Star Trek, or Lost AND 24 right? Do narrative fan communities necessarily have to position themselves in opposition to something? Whereas with music culture it seems that fan communities are often in opposition to something – perhaps more mainstream cultures or particular genres (maybe?). And certainly with sports by declaring your loyalty to one team (e.g. Oklahoma Sooners) you are simultaneously displaying your “hate” for another team (e.g. Texas Longhorns).

It is quite possible that I am misinterpreting narrative fan communities, and I’m sure there are examples that would stand in opposition to my point, but it seems to me that within non-narrative fan communities there is a greater sense of “us” versus “them” mentality than is present within narrative fan communities (which appear to be more about identification than difference – although I recognize you can’t really separate the two).

By: Tom Ewing

Tom Ewing — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:06:57 +0000

Oddly enough I just did a column for Pitchfork about music fandom and wider “fandom”. Since I know a lot about the former and not much at all about the latter it’s probably skewed or inaccurate but I think it’s relevant to this question and comment thread.

http://pitchfork.com/features/poptimist/7635-poptimist-21/

By: Gary McGath

Gary McGath — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:45:09 +0000

It strikes me that as you’ve defined the fandoms, filk is closer to “narrative fandom” than “music fandom.” This may even make sense; for filkers, the words are often more important than the music, and filk is something quite different from putting music to videos. Filk songs often do tell original stories about familiar characters (the best-known example being Leslie Fish’s “Banned from Argo”). While I’m a filker primarily, I’ve also accompanied a silent movie at a con, which I think you’d call a “music fandom” activity. As with many human activities, the line can be hard to draw.

By: M. Robert Turnage

M. Robert Turnage — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:25:19 +0000

So you don’t consider cover songs or music videos to be akin fan fiction? I see them as different interpretations of the narrative of the music. I even consider singing along at a concert as participating in the narrative of the song.

Music does have narrative in it; it builds and swells; it moves to a climax; it comes to a conclusion. The fact that a song like Boston’s “More than a Feeling” resonates with so many people is because of the dramatic structure of the song. It hooks you and takes you on a ride, building to an emotional climax. This comes from the music itself, not the lyrics.

And there is the entire world of musical theater that is being conveniently ignored here. That world is music and narrative combined. Bands from the Beatles to The Who to Green Day have been influenced by that world.

To write a song in response takes a certain level of skill that a lot of people don’t have or necessarily aspire to (unless you are Liz Phair responding to the Rolling Stones). However, it is easy to participate in the narrative of the music by singing along, or reinterpreting the narrative of the music by making a cover song or filming a music video.

I think there is a lot of creativity and participation from the music fan community, but because of the way “narrative” is defined, suddenly that participation is being discounted or deemed not as creative as fan fiction.

To be completely honest, I would rather hear a good cover song than read fan fiction any day of the week.

By: Marj K

Marj K — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 03:43:25 +0000

“Music fans don’t seek to complete the music through interpretation and creativity.”

I think this might be a matter of degree, Nancy. Music fans created wonderwalls and memory books, fan websites and zines …

Many music blogs go beyond reviews to be an outlet for creative expression.

Some fan groups are more interested in the lyrics than others – Augie March fans spend a lot of time interpreting lyrics. John Prine fans quiz each other on their knowledge of the lyrics (Which songs mention …?)

On the Steve Earle forum there was a comment that his haiku were the only place where he didn’t swear, so fans wrote f**ku based on his lyrics but including expletives.

There are blogs that illustrate lyrics, and a number of Flickr groups like http://www.flickr.com/groups/marillionlyrics/ for pictures that illustrate particular lyrics of Marillion songs.

By: Nancy Baym

Nancy Baym — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:42:53 +0000

Ok, lots of great examples of how the two things I’m talking about bleed into one another and are far from clear cut.

I want to clarify for Derek that I am NOT meaning to take away from the creativity of music fans. Indeed, in the talk I gave at MidemNet I posited creativity as one of the 5 core practices of music fandom. What I was responding to is the assertion that comes out of Jenkins’s work that the entry point for fan engagement is holes in narratives. I have seen this as a central claim in fandom research many times and my point was meant to be that this is perhaps NOT what opens the door to music fan engagement and to therefore question its centrality as an explanation for fan engagement.

I also never meant to imply that one cannot be both a music fan and a fan of narratives.

I continue to think that there are real differences between what fan groups built around music tend to do and what those discussing tv shows, movies, and books even I didn’t articulate them adequately above. I suspect that because of LJ’s fandom culture, there is probably more overlap there than there is in the wild on the rest of the internet.

By: Derek Kompare

Derek Kompare — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:15:44 +0000

Interesting post and comments. I’m so glad these discussions always roll along!

At the risk of missing something in the discussion, I have to ask what music fans (and for that matter, but it’s not the focus here, narrative fans) we’re talking about. I admit I’m not all that knowledgeable about bandfic and RPF, but I do know that when I think of “music fans,” I think of intensely creative, passionate people.

Thus, this pgph doesn’t quite sit well with me:

Narrative also leaves space for much more fan creativity. Music fans may make their own videos to accompany songs, or form cover bands, or write fan fiction about musicians, but with the important exception of remixes, which remain a fairly marginal fan practice, I’ve never seen fans write songs in the same way that fans of a TV show will write stories using the characters. Music fans don’t seek to complete the music through interpretation and creativity. The music arrives complete. Fans can’t fix it or rebuild it in the same way they can with stories.

I’m guessing you’ve never heard bootleg reconstructions of the Smile sessions, then? Or decade-spanning Grateful Dead mash-ups and mix tapes? Or not-quite cover bands, who write songs in the style of their favorites? Or even resequenced albums?

It seems like you’re privileging “narrative” as a kind of baseline creative form, in areas where that might not necessarily be the case. I don’t even know the names of everyone in the Shins or the New Pornographers, but I certainly know how their songs, and wonderful, non-lyrical moments therein, make me feel.

On a semi-related note (and I’ve noticed this elsewhere, from others): is the notion of existing book/film/TV narratives as somehow “incomplete” a necessary condition of media fandom? I could say more on that thought, but I’ll leave it at that for now.