I’ve been interviewing people involved in the Swedish indie music scene these last few months. Today I thought I’d dive into them a little and share a few quotes from people running labels that I think represent a real shift in the way indies are doing business as well as how they differ from the major labels. I’m not going to identify the interviewees because I didn’t get their permission to quote them by name for this purpose, and I’m not sure it matters that much right now.

First, though some are making money on CD sales, they don’t seem to expect to and have other ideas about where the money is going to be made: live music, clubs, and sponsorship. They are high on giving their music away, or at least the singles. Says one label guy:

As a label, simple things like giving away every single as an MP3 helps a lot. If you’re a small label you have nothing to lose by spreading your music. Having a record label isn’t the best way of making money anyway… but coming from a very indie background, most 7″ singles I bought when I was younger sold 500 copies or less. Albums around 1,000 perhaps, I’m sometimes surprised the music we release sells as well as it does. [...] There are a lot of records stores closing down. But the ones closing down are the ones which aren’t niche-stores. And there’s an increase in venues to play and clubs I think. Everyone has their own club nowadays. Having your own fashion brand or starting a club is the new starting a band.

And another:

I’m giving up on selling CDs, but we’re making CDs and trying to get them on elsewhere, we can’t make money from selling them. I’m trying to figure out different ways to earn money and get artists to be professional musicians: Setting up clubs, trying to get people who have money to pay for the music. Like companies pay for using your music because then you can rip some fuckers with money off, like sponsorships. I have nothing against that. If the sponsorship thing is good and you feel like both parties are winning on it. Companies realize they can’t get their logo on everything.

I was particularly interested in how a third label person articulated what I see as a major theme in my interviews, the use of free music to create not just a buzz about your band, but a cultural scene around your kind of music. One could argue this has always been the case with indie music, and certainly the scene has always been important, but where the scene used to be built primarily through touring, it now can be built through file sharing, and that seems new:

If we didn’t put out mp3s, we wouldn’t get the attention we need, so it can only be positive. I view file sharing as a positive. It’s affecting the culture, listeners who are into our kind of music, they are more music fans than the general listener. That kind of person has increased in number over the last 5-6 years. In Stockholm now there are tons of clubs that play our kind of music. It’s 100% file sharing and the internet that we have to thank. All people involved in indie music have known that if we could only get exposure we’d be huge. The majors had marketing and budgets, but the internet made it easy for the independents.

He goes on to talk about the importance of active online fans and mp3 bloggers:

It’s a big thing. A lot of our fans share common values with the whole file sharing, the culture benefits. It’s a very important factor, it translates some kind of interest that we share a common value — shared music taste, discontent with the dominant major labels. mp3 bloggers are important in the development of mp3 culture. In the beginning there weren’t many mp3 blogs, it had very big impact if we put up our own site because everyone would go to the site. Nowadays mp3 blogs have taken that place. The label isn’t enough of a filter anymore. It’s great for us. If a big mp3 blog puts up a track by one of our artists it gives it credibility. It makes it easier for people to like it and accept the music.

Says the first label guy quoted above:

Hopefully, MP3s, MySpace, internet, blogs and all that changes things so that we more and more have to put our trust in people’s good taste in music (and our way of of presenting our music I suppose) rather than big muscle marketing.

Some key words in there: trust & common values. No wonder I like these guys :)

Part 2 of an interview with Shell, webmaster for PureRobbie.com, a Robbie Williams fansite. Yesterday we got an overview of the site and its relationship with Robbie Williams and his associates. Today, she shares her insights and lessons learned from running the site:

What do you think has made the site as successful as it is?

Good, fair, impartial management who have alot of enthusiasm for the site and his membership base. Original content, that is updated constantly and a site that is very user friendly.

The members play a huge part too. They are friendly, welcoming, diverse and alot of firm friendships have developed and grown. The atmosphere on the community is great, whereas on some fansites i have come across in my research i cannot say the same.

Members are very supportive of the site and it’s staff which is also a major factor of being successful.

You’re also involved in The Admin Zone. For people who aren’t aware of that, can you tell us more about that site?

The Admin Zone is a site for new and old forum community administrators and moderators. It offers help and support as well as a reviewing service and original articles and tutorials to help build, manage and maintain a forum based website.

What insights have you gained into managing fan communities as a result of your involvement with PureRobbie.com

It wasn’t what i expected to be honest. Managing a fansite has thrown up alot of insights. The main being the treatment of celebrities by the tabloid media both online and off. I’ve learnt about online promotion and believe fansites go along way to help promote their subjects new material as well as supporting the artist online. The legalities behind online music, videos, lyrics and images has also been an insight.

There’s also a negative side to fandom. We have come across a few obsessives and the staff team have had to learn how to deal with this in the best possible way behind the scenes in private without it effecting the community as a whole. It can be quite shocking and disturbing when you come across these people but the good easily outweighs the bad and luckily on Pure Robbie 99% of fans using the site do so in a positive way and respect the site’s and artists wishes .

One of our main insights was when questioning just how far discussions could go. The artist recently admitted himself into rehab for addiction to perscription drugs. Obviously this was a concern to fans but some discussions were beginning to, in the staffs opinion, intrude too much into his personal life. Fans were assuming and speculating about his health to a degree that made us feel uncomfortable and even though his management didn’t disapprove we felt that out of respect fans shouldn’t speculate and only listen to the facts both the artist, and his family and management put out relating to this personal and sensitive subject.

There’s been alot of debate on the site since about how far discussions should go and what should and should not be discussed on a public forum/fansite.

What advice would you offer others who are interested in creating a fan site?

I’d advise researching the market. If there are other fansites already for your subject look what works for them and what doesnt and build upon that. Add originality wherever possible to make your fansite stand out. Pay attention to detail when creating the sites design and layout. Theme and design should be tied together. Have a logo that is brandable, original and recognisable.

Things to include on a fansite are:

Biography, discography, filmography, an archive of all ‘old’ information on your chosen subject, image gallery, news section, original reviews and articles as well as site exclusives.

Get members involved in all areas of the site.

Consider how to generate site revenue as fansites can grow rapidly and you need to be able to generate enough revenue to keep the site up and running as things like bandwidth useage can send your hosting package up the scale pretty quickly, be prepared. You will also need revenue to run competitions etc to keep generating interest. Research advertising opportunities and member subscriptions or donations.

Also be the site that brings the news in quickly and constantly. Give members a reason to keep returning and try to maintain a good atmosphere on the community. Get members as involved in the site as possible Fansites are all about fans opinions, ensure they have outlets for these.

Are there any other things you think we should know about PureRobbie.com that I didn’t ask?

I believe Pure Robbie, and the majority of fansites online have changed the relationship between artist/subject and fan and also contribute to the online promotion of the artist and their work.

Online Fansites also help an artists profile online, their supporters can share opinions with other like minded people from around the world. Information is delieved to a wider audience alot more quickly making the fan feel closer to the artist as well as being able to keep up to date on all his goings on like future releases, projects etc…

Fans opinions, posted on fansites are picked up by search engines placing their opinions on many subjects relating to the artist/subject alongside those of critics in search engine results, giving anyone looking for information about the artist/subject a rounder, more balanced and informed perspective.

Though we Americans have rarely heard of him, on the other side of the pond, Robbie Williams is big big news. And he’s got a big big fan following to go along with that. I recently spoke with Shell, the webmaster for PureRobbie.com, a very successful fansite. Shell is a mid-30s student of English, living in England, who turned her interest in online community management toward her interest in Robbie Williams about a year ago. She also works with others helping them manage fan communities. Today and tomorrow, I’m happy to share her insights into this and other fan sites:

Can you give us some background on PureRobbie? How old is it, how many users do you have? What do people do on it?

Pure Robbie opened in April 2006. I began researching this project in Nov 05 because he was embarking on a massive world wide tour and although he has some good fansites out there i wanted to create one with a focus on original articles and reviews written by fans, to bring them together in one place to share their experience of the tour and admiration of the artist and his work and one that was able to accomodate a large membership base that spans the globe. Alot of his fansites are small groups and country specific, whereas Pure Robbie was intended to accomodate fans from around the globe. I was in contact with the artists management who knew of my plans and offered advice when i needed it.

In just over a year the site has 6,000 members and 30,000 visitors every month. The members have created a massive 11,338 threads/articles and made 630,228 posts.

On the site you can find all the latest news, reviews and interviews relating to the artist from the media and discuss these with other fans plus original reviews, interviews and news written by the site staff, reporters and members. In the year we have been open we have exclusivly interviewed members of his band, management and collaborators, the latest being Mark Ronson who is currently having alot of success in the UK album charts and he has just released an album in the US featuring Robbie Williams.

There’s a large image gallery full of pictures from the start of his career to the present day. We also have an amazing fan fiction section where members actively post and read fiction, poetry and drama relating to Robbie Williams. On the site there is also a live chat room and we run monthly Superfan prize competitions that are very popular.We also have a ‘blog to Rob’ section where members can blog about anything or send messages to Robbie in the hope he pops by and reads them.

There are also sections on the site to discuss his music, books, films, videos, gossip, tv and radio appearances, L.A Vale (celebrity soccer team managed by Robbie Williams) as well as a download section. There’s also advertising space for fans to exchange Robbie goods.

As distractions from discussing Rob we have a very active general chat area and a games and quiz section and we run alot of prize competitions. Members have also organised meets offline in London, Germany, America and the next one is planned for Amsterdam. All of which have been very popular and fun.

You mentioned that there are a number of related resources outside the site, can you tell us more about them?

As well as the main site we have a Myspace social network. The Myspace links members of the site to other fans on the www as well as promoting our exclusive interviews, news and reviews around the www and puts fans in touch with others fans spaces which helps develop friendships.

We then have our own blogspot where again our news, reviews and interviews are promoted around the www. The news on this blog often contradicts the lies the tabloids write about him in the hope the ‘truth’ gets a shot of being heard too. Subscribers to this blog recieve daily email alerts.

We also have our own store where Robbie Williams music and goods can be bought new or second hand.

What has the attitude of Robbie Williams and his associates been toward the site?

ie music management, who have looked after Rob for over a decade have been great. They assist us in the kind of content we post on the site to keep our download section legal and pass on things the community wish to send to Rob such as messages of support, fan feedback and birthday cards/gifts. They’ve been very supportive, sending us congratulations on our first year and advising us on how to handle any media inquiries which was a great help in light of recent events surrounding our artist/subject.

Robbie has met a number of Pure Robbie members and has taken alot of time to speak with them, pose for pictures and sign Pure Robbie banners, cds, pictures etc.

Why do you think this is?

I believe they have been very positive towards the fansite as they know it is managed with experience and assists in the online promotion of the artist and his work in a very positive way. Our fansite works alongside the artists official site and does not compete with it, we offer something completly different, interaction. We offer fans a place to discuss the artist and his work and we also promote the latest additions and goods published on the official site.

Speaking to a fan recently Robbie Williams expressed that fansites like Pure Robbie were good because we could post and discuss both negative and positive media articles relating to him whereas the official site is not able to do this. For me this showed approval of his fansites and what they can achieve online.

Do you feel like you and your site have any influence on Robbie Williams and his career?

I’d like to hope so. Hopefully he and his management gain an insight into what fans think about his music etc through our comments and reviews but our main aim is to dilute all the negative articles from the tabloids, especially the UK ones, online by publishing our own news which show the tabloid lies for what they are and to get the truth, as we know it, out there.

For example, there’s just been a media frenzy relating to a new video blog he published on his official site. The UK tabloids wrote headlines like ‘Rob found God’, and questioned his mental health, whereas our news article stated what had really occured on the video blog which was an artist playing a sample of a new tune in his studio and having a joke or two. In the search engine results relating to this, our article stood beside the negative ones, hopefully helping to ‘counter attack’ it. We were also lucky enough to recieve Rob’s reaction to the media story when a fan interviewed him at a soccer game and was able to add this quote to our news article, adding strength to our ‘truth’, and helping to dilute the lies. Rob admitted the tabloid story was lies, to put it mildly.

The site also promotes respecting the artists privacy wherever possible. We do not allow any of his personal details or private engagements to be published on the site and advise fans on how to respect his personal space when around him.

We also advise on safety etc at concert venues, giving advise on parking, buying tickets, the best gates for the best view, food, accomodation and travel to these events in the hope both fans and the venue’s organises have an event that runs as safe, and smoothly as possible, giving everyone involved a great experience when seeing their idol.

Tomorrow, more from Shell on the insights she’s gained from working on this site and others.

iLike’s Facebook application continues to add hundreds of thousands of listeners every day. As I write it’s got just under 2.2 MILLION users just 2 weeks after its launch. In contrast, Last.fm’s official application has 62,000 and MOG’s even fewer. The other day I speculated on whether this had led to a decline in visits to iLike.com. Ali Partovi, iLike CEO, explained in the comments that:

a) given the explosive growth on Facebook, we intentionally disabled various aspects of iLike.com — including all email notifications, newsletters, etc — deliberately hoping to temporarily reduce our traffic to conserve server capacity for our Facebook app.

b) despite these efforts, the massive Facebook traffic caused daily outages all last week, not only on Facebook’s own servers but also on ours, taking out both the iLike FB app and iLike.com.

While I won’t be surprised to see a time when iLike.com users are “switching” in significant numbers to use iLike on Facebook, I don’t think that’s happening yet.

As of now, the users of iLike.com still greatly outnumber the users of iLike on Facebook (perhaps not for long!). Also, we have not yet announced our Facebook app to the iLike mailing list, nor have we interlinked the two databases — so users on iLike.com can’t (yet) easily switch their accounts over to Facebook. As these things change over the coming weeks, it will be interesting to watch — indeed a lot of iLike.com users might switch permanently to using iLike on Facebook instead!

My curiosity was piqued by this last sentence, and especially it’s enthusaistic tone, as though people leaving iLike.com for iLike-the-Facebook-application might be a GOOD thing. So I followed up on that, and here’s our conversation:

Nancy: It sounds from your comment like iLike would be quite content to have its users using the site from within Facebook vs going to iLike.com? Is that right? And what are the implications of that for how sites like iLike operate in the future?

Ali: Well, we know that iLike’s functionality, no matter how good on its own, can be even better when deeply integrated in to the Facebook platform. Although we’ve barely started the migration of functions from iLike.com to Facebook, already we can tell that iLike on FB will be *better* for the consumer than iLike.com on its own.

Having accepted that, the rest writes itself. There’s no way we’d try to fight an uphill battle against what’s best for the consumer. And fortunately, in contrast to the precariously-balanced “Myspace widget ecosystem,” making $ on the FB platform is no harder than making $ on our own site. In fact, the business model doesn’t change at all — the only difference is that it will take more effort to build and maintain multiple versions of our site (especially if we need to support more than one such platform, if FB’s competitors create equivalent platforms of their own).

N: In what ways do you think iLike on FB is “better for the consumer?” How is its functionality improved through FB integration?

A: The #1 way people discover music is through friends, and iLike’s mission is to facilitate that. Facebook enhances this in two key ways: 1) instant personalization. On our dot-com site, each new user needs to tell us their music tastes, invite their friends, and get those friends to tell us their tastes. Whereas on our Facebook site, we already know your tastes, your friends, and their tastes, so we can offer you a personalized experience automatically. 2) Not another social network. People don’t wanna go somewhere separate just for music — they want music to enhance their existing online social life. For example: where would you rather see a notification that your buddies are going to see Snow Patrol: on a separate music website, or in the Facebook news feed that you’re already checking five times a day?

N: As I understand it, right now iLike Facebook users are not linked to iLike.com users, so people might be running 2 accounts with you. Is that right? And if it is, will the accounts eventually be linked?

A: That’s correct — people’s existing accounts on iLike.com are not (yet) linked to their accounts on Facebook. This is an interim situation that we’ll hopefully resolve in a few weeks. We had only a few weeks to build iLike on Facebook so we postponed some of the bigger tasks… what you see today is just the beginning!

N: I’ve heard that the main source of iLike revenue is through Ticketmaster. Is that accurate (and hence why it doesn’t matter where on the web iLike users are using iLike)?

A: As an ad-supported site, we can make as much money on our Facebook app as on our own dot-com site — perhaps even more! Regardless of which site you visit, we can learn your tastes, recommend new music or concerts to you, provide links for you to buy, collect affiliate fees, and show you ads along the way. In fact, on our Facebook app, we know more about you, so we should be able to make more money by showing you more relevant ads.

N: You’re suggesting you see iLike eventually operating through multiple sites, not just Facebook. Are there any plans in the works to launch applications for other platforms?

A: There’s no other platform out there (yet) that remotely approaches what Facebook offers today. Will Facebook’s competitors successfully launch something competitive? That’s the Web2.0 question of the year. Strategically, I don’t love being dependent on a single platform; but I’m also not sure the market has room for another. There’s an enormous network effect that favors everything on the same platform.

N: It seems that particularly in the last few months we’re seeing increasing trending toward the fusion of what used to be multiple sites — startpages, widgets, Facebook applications. Do you have any general thoughts or insights on the opportunities and challenges of this trend?

A: I see it as not just a trend, but an epic Darwinian clash between platforms. Over ten years we’ve seen the gradual evolution of a “widget syndication” model, where companies push features out into embeddable snippets. Against that gradual trend, the Facebook platform is a massive evolutionary leap: rather than extending my website through widgets, I can now build an entirely new, more powerful site from scratch with the awesome building blocks that Facebook offers. Which approach is better? Only time will tell, but my prediction is that those who embrace Facebook’s platform will beat those who don’t. I don’t see Facebook’s Platform as part of a trend in the evolution of widgets, except in the sense that the emergence of mammals was part of a trend in the evolution of giant reptiles.

N: Finally, are there any other things you think I (and Online Fandom readers) ought to know about iLike that I haven’t asked about?

N: It’s amazing that our Facebook app has gone from zero to 2 million users in less than two weeks… I don’t know of any new technology in history growing that fast. And we’ve only just begun :)

A few weeks ago, I wrote about Vinorati, a bi-lingual social networking site based in France for wine enthusiasts. Since then, people searching for “wine social network” have been landing on my site consistently, including, it seems Sagi Solomon, who runs another social networking site built around wine called Open Bottles, launched way back in late 2005. As I wrote before, wine seems ideal for social networking — there are zillions of choices no one can taste all of — which makes social knowledge pooling essential — and there are already a lot of social occasions built around wine (wine tasting parties, for instance, or the country of France). Like music, there’s also a professional criticism industry which your average wine drinker may or may not identify with. As Solomon says about his inspiration for starting the site:

When I first got into wine I realized two things – that my primary source of recommendations came from friends, and that the wines my friends recommended were better than the wines recommended by other sources (e.g., Parker or Enthusiast). My friends felt the same way. I created OpenBottles so that my friends and I could share wine recommendations.

From a fandom perspective, wine is also interesting in that it is clearly “high culture” in contrast to all that “low culture” stuff fans do, yet when you look at what wine lovers are doing together on these sites, it doesn’t look all that different from what people into things like low-class rock music do when they get together on the net.

I posted an interview with Vinorati’s co-founder here and here, so when Sagi wrote, I grabbed the chance to ask him about OpenBottles. I started by asking him about user activity on the site:

The community is growing rapidly. Traffic to the site is growing exponentially as thousands of visitors and members visit each month. I have about 50 winery members participating. The database contains information about more than 19,000 wines and 2,100 wineries, which is one of the largest wine databases from what I can tell.

The main thing that members are doing is sharing wine and winery recommendations and managing their wine collections using our cellar feature. Visitors to the site primarily research wine information and reviews.

Here’s the rest of our interview:

One of the things I thought was interesting about OpenBottles is that you are encouraging wineries to create profiles for themselves and their products. What motivated you to invite the wineries into the site? What contribution do you think sites like OpenBottles can offer the relationships between winebuffs and wineries?

My initial motivator was to get wineries to help me build the database. That focus has changed as the site grew. Early on I developed good relationships with small, emerging wineries. These wineries were producing great wines, but most people never heard of them. I realized that OpenBottles was the perfect place to make the introduction. Wineries get their brands in front of the community, and the community gets to find out about the up-and-coming wineries. Everyone wins! My current focus is on helping wineries convert online traffic into foot traffic to their tasting rooms.

In addition, OpenBottles opens another channel of communication between the wineries and the community. Through this channel, the wineries can communicate information about their new releases, offer discounts, special offers and other benefits that are specifically tailored for the community.

Finally, wineries and wine consumers benefit from the free exchange of information. Wineries learn about the tastes and preferences of their customers through the reviews they leave on OpenBottles. Based on those reviews, wineries can adapt and deliver a better product (and experience) to their customers.

Are there tensions that have arisen around having the wineries and their customer-critics discussing the wines in the same site?

Good question. I have not had any problems in this area. Our community values honest communication and we do not tolerate jerks. Honest, but negative reviews, are welcome and encouraged. Personal opinions rule in our community, and for the most part everyone gets it. I had one incident of a winemaker requesting that I remove a negative comment about his tasting room. I refused, and explained how this feedback is actually useful to him. He got it.

I see a number of parallels between online social groups for wine, and those for music, film, tv shows, and so on. Bringing the wineries and buffs together on OpenBottles, seems to parallel MySpace, but with vintners instead of bands. What are your thoughts about this?

That’s a great observation. I’m a believer in applying lessons learned by other people to save time and money. I try to mimic MySpace where I think it is appropriate. MySpace did a lot of things right, and it also did a lot of things wrong. For one thing, MySpace made the community personal. I think that’s key. One thing MySpace isn’t doing right is that it is losing focus. It started with a music focus, but it is straying from that. I think that’s a mistake. OpenBottles is a wine community, and that is where our focus will remain. I want to make sure that we are always providing our members with relevant, useful and actionable information. I will continue to incorporate features that worked well in other communities to the extent that they add value to our community. I’m always looking for ways to build a stronger, more active community.

Are there any ways in which users have surprised you with the uses they’ve made of the site?

I strongly believe in asking the community for feedback and building features that address the community’s needs. In that regard, the uses the community makes of the site are the uses they requested. For example, the community uses the winery reviews to plan wine tasting trips. That is not something I contemplated originally, but it is such a good use of the data that I plan on introducing some features to make it easier to do this kind of planning. Another example is the community using the information from the site in other settings, such as professional networking events. There has also been talk about using the wine community to build a professional network. I’m looking into how this can be accommodated as well.

What have you found to be the biggest challenges of building a social networking site?

The biggest challenge of building the wine community is getting people to contribute. I’ve found that most wine drinkers expect wine reviews to read a certain way (like Parker’s reviews). They are therefore afraid of sounding inexperienced or of being wrong. This is a huge challenge, and one that will take time to resolve. One of the ways I try to help people get over this fear is to focus the rating and reviewing process on the personal experience rather than the “technical” aspects of wine. No one can argue with my opinion about whether or not I liked the wine or not. Simplifying the rating system has been useful at all. The 100-point scales are difficult to apply practically (what’s the difference between an 88 and a 91?), and they are easy to skew. If you allow people to respond in a non-committed answer (“neutral” or “3 out of 5”), they will, and the data is useless. Our rating system is easy to understand, is based on personal experiences and is easy to standardize. All of these elements encourage members to share.

What advice would you offer others who are interested in creating online social spaces for people to discuss their favorite hobbies?

First and foremost, I would recommend that they have a focus. Lack of focus is death in this space. Second, I would encourage them to always communicate with the community to find out what it’s doing, what it wants, what’s working and what’s not. I interact with my members regularly and I give them many ways to reach me. Finally, I would focus on introducing tools to help people share information quickly and easily. The key is to get useful information disseminated as quickly as possible, and to standardize it for quick consumption. With wine, I created the “Liked By” rating as shorthand for what the community thought about the wine. More detail is easily accessible, if that is what the visitor wants. Finally, I would recommend that anyone starting a community should have passion for the subject. That passion should infect every aspect of the community from features to its members. Passion is what holds the community together.